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puc reducks

HOW DO YOU THINK?

Got this today from a friend (high-school chum) who has spent many years in government, working on behalf of the homeless.

She attended a "visioning" event in NYC.  Here is her story:

I realized that I just don't think like people who're in their 30s.

I was asked to put together a visual representation of how I solve a problem.  This "visioner" said she'd never seen anything like it.

My solution:  1. identify the problem,  2.  make sure you understand the problem,  3.  think about possible solutions,  4.  see who can help,  5.  test the possible solutions on the helpers,  6.  do something,  7.  see if it works and if not, do something else.

I thought it was pretty straightforward.

She thought I needed to visualize the problem as solved and work backward.  She also thought I needed to form a solution visualization team and gain consensus.

She said a lot of other stuff, too, and wondered why I didn't use sticky notes on a white board to move around possible approaches.

I said it was because when I got taught to solve problems sticky notes hadn't been invented yet.  I am definitely becoming crankier in my dotage.


~~~~~~

My questions, minimally, to you all:  Do you get this approach?  What are the benefits of a visualization "team"?  Is that the same as brainstorming (I AM familiar with that)?  How can the problem be solved without having an actual solution or solutions recommended--after an analysis of the data?

I don't know.  All this talk about "tablets" this and "tablets" that.  I'm pretty sure no one is talking about cuneiform tablets.  I'm reading that PC's will be nonexistent in five years.  Why? Other than because "we can."  Why don't people want to learn how to think?
bieramar

puc reducks wrote:
Got this today from a friend....

She attended a "visioning" event in NYC.  Here is her story:

I realized that I just don't think like people who're in their 30s.

My questions, minimally, to you all:  

1. Do you get this [visualization] approach?  

2. What are the benefits of a visualization "team"?  

3. Is that the same as brainstorming?

4. How can the problem be solved without having an actual solution or solutions recommended--after an analysis of the data?

I'm reading that PC's will be nonexistent in five years.
5. Why? Other than because "we can."  

6. Why don't people want to learn how to think?


Answering the questions:

1. Yes.

2. Gestalt - the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

3. No.

4. "All is process".

5. Obsolete and redundant.

6. Recognizing that the words "people who're in their 30s" and "people" are rhetorical generalizations is the fundamental agreed upon premise necessary before addressing the judgment implicit in the question; that (1) "visualization" is not thinking, and (2) Thomistic/Aristotelian logical process is.  

Or, viewed another way, what is implicit in the question is that (1) sensory-based cognition is not thinking, but (2) language-based cognition is thinking.

The ways we think - the processes which we use to find answers and solve problems, to advance from an idea to an actualization, to move from a premise to a conclusion - while uniquely different for each of us are divided into different methods/ways.  

There is NO ONE ONLY way to think (the existential proof being the postings on these forums over the last decade).

The question "Why don't people want to learn how to think" really is "Why don't people want to learn to think in the logical problem-solving language-based cognitive way I think?"

The answer to the rephrased question is "Because all persons don't think the same way."

The logic and processes of sensory-based thinking - including auditory, visual, tactile and proprioceptive - is different than language-based.  

A truly balanced person (cf. Myers-Briggs Type Indicators) strives to use both types of thinking equally, after initially practicing the one which had not "come naturally" to bring it up to par.

(I've theoretically known the above for some time - actually back to the initial development of the Myers-Briggs in which I was one of the test subjects.  But the value of sensory-based learning became empirically obvious to me a bit over 5 years ago when I suffered a major loss of use of the afferent proprioceptive nerve pathway from my lower extremity muscles to my brain.)
puc reducks

Bieramar responded:
Answering the questions:

1. Yes.

2. Gestalt - the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

3. No.

4. "All is process".

5. Obsolete and redundant.

6. Recognizing that the words "people who're in their 30s" and "people" are rhetorical generalizations is the fundamental agreed upon premise necessary before addressing the judgment implicit in the question; that (1) "visualization" is not thinking, and (2) Thomistic/Aristotelian logical process is.  

Or, viewed another way, what is implicit in the question is that (1) sensory-based cognition is not thinking, but (2) language-based cognition is thinking.

The ways we think - the processes which we use to find answers and solve problems, to advance from an idea to an actualization, to move from a premise to a conclusion - while uniquely different for each of us are divided into different methods/ways.  

There is NO ONE ONLY way to think (the existential proof being the postings on these forums over the last decade).

The question "Why don't people want to learn how to think" really is "Why don't people want to learn to think in the logical problem-solving language-based cognitive way I think?"

The answer to the rephrased question is "Because all persons don't think the same way."

The logic and processes of sensory-based thinking - including auditory, visual, tactile and proprioceptive - is different than language-based.  

A truly balanced person (cf. Myers-Briggs Type Indicators) strives to use both types of thinking equally, after initially practicing the one which had not "come naturally" to bring it up to par.

(I've theoretically known the above for some time - actually back to the initial development of the Myers-Briggs in which I was one of the test subjects.  But the value of sensory-based learning became empirically obvious to me a bit over 5 years ago when I suffered a major loss of use of the afferent proprioceptive nerve pathway from my lower extremity muscles to my brain.)


~~~~~~~~~~

Many thanks for taking the time and thought to reply!  I have another that I also would appreciate your input on (everyone who cares to, also). New topic to come.

But first:

1. Yes.  That's not complete enough for me to understand. Pls. tell my WHY/HOW you "get" this visualization approach.  (I meditate, pray, visualize daily. But I would use any of these approaches to solve a data problem? No, not at first.  I'd llikely ask for help to see things clearly, but this route would not be my first in attempting to resolve the problem. Am I missing a key compent to understanding your "Yes" ???)

2- I understand gestalt.  I even believe it to be useful. But, when I am asked to solve a problem, I don't want interference unless I ask for it--then, I'd likely call it "help."  No.  I want to think and puzzle the solution for myself, first.  If I cannot do that, then I would try to approach the thing different, and then ask for others' input.  But gestalt for gestalt's sake?  Not that way inclined.

3- No.  Again, not enough info.  Cf. #1 above.  What is diff?  Doesn't brainstorming target the same brain/process?  That is, of solving a problem, bringing to that task one's intellect, knowledge, intuition, and the rest of it?  I really would like to know what YOU think the difference is between visuallization and brainstorming.

4- "All is process."  I realize this to a soul-level.  But, again, I am not sure what YOU mean, nor how you will apply "process" to, say, homelessness, which is the original context of this exercise.

5- OK!  That's what I'm thinking, too.  Partially.  I also think it's all a scam to have consumers BUY.  Will lI have to carry a tablet to be connected, in every way that verb has significance?  Sumerians carried tablets.  I see this as a "goes around, comes around."  Everything eventually becomes "obsolete and redundant."  Human evolution cannot keep up with human technology.  The answer isn't more apps.  It's relying on one's internal "tablet"--one's brain--and that is why thinking, critical and otherwise, is at the core.

6- I'm not singling out the 30's people.  Nor do I believe that sensory-based cognition is not thinking.  Quite the opposite.  I "knew" that at a very early age.   I used to be fond of saying, "We've been taken in by what we've taken in."  Meaning?  That Western cultures have been short-changing themselves for millennia.  There is far more to cognition, thought processes, ad infinitum, than what we perceive by our five senses.  That is the folly of Western thought--that what's beyond our sense goes untapped, unnoticed, etc.

Really, I don't expect everyone to think as I do.  I'm trying to understand how, in the case cited, visualizing the solution is even possible--without doing the analysis!

As for applying different methods ("processes"?) when solutions/results don't occur from first/familiar tries:  YES!!!  One must look at it differently!  But I don't think we need Myers-Briggs to tell us that.  Isn't that, well, just THINKING?
jasmine

I would love to reply, but both of you are so intellectually above me, but it is good to read.
puc reducks

jasmine wrote:
I would love to reply, but both of you are so intellectually above me, but it is good to read.


Not me, Jas!  Smile   I'm just continuing my quest--to understand.

Please jump in!  I believe everyone has something to contribute!
jasmine

puc reducks wrote:
jasmine wrote:
I would love to reply, but both of you are so intellectually above me, but it is good to read.


Not me, Jas!  Smile   I'm just continuing my quest--to understand.

Please jump in!  I believe everyone has something to contribute!


Undersand what???  I think life should be lived simply, not as complex as both you and Bier portray.  I have a good mind, but I it also comes down to "theory or reality".  I like reality.  BTW, Scrut is on vacation for 3 days, that's reality.
puc reducks

jasmine wrote:
puc reducks wrote:
jasmine wrote:
I would love to reply, but both of you are so intellectually above me, but it is good to read.


Not me, Jas!  Smile   I'm just continuing my quest--to understand.

Please jump in!  I believe everyone has something to contribute!


Undersand what???  I think life should be lived simply, not as complex as both you and Bier portray.  I have a good mind, but I it also comes down to "theory or reality".  I like reality.  BTW, Scrut is on vacation for 3 days, that's reality.


Understand what?  Understand Life.  What we are doing here.  More, what I am doing here.  I am not "portraying" anything.  I am stating my beliefs.  Not asking you or anyone to join me.

I live my life simply; please do not judge me thus.

Different strokes for different folks.
bieramar

Numbering from the first questioning.

1. Maybe I misunderstood your question.  My understanding is that your friend was asked to put together a visual representation of how she solves a problem. But instead of presenting a visualization solution, she presented a SOP language-based logical analytical solution.  In other words she didn't perform the prescribed task at the visioning weekend.  Your question was do I  
"get" the visualization approach, and wiseass as I am I just answered "yes."  

In its most simplistic form visualization (which BTW has been my method of determining my next major move in life for many years) is to imagine/visualize in sensory data of sight, sound, touch et al a place where the problem you are attempting to solve does not exist.

I wouldn't use visualization to solve a run of the mill data problem either - I'm an analyst and would apply my learned language-based skills.      

2. Again, your friend was at a visioning workshop (as I understand it) - not at a workshop to compare the efficacy of the two different systems of thinking, or even to judge one as being better than the other.  I use whichever one seems most likely to obtain the most valid result in the shortest length of time.  Utilizing a team just brings others' unique visions into play.

3. Brainstorming is fundamentally language-based logic bouncing off another's language-based logic.  It is different than comparing different "visions" obtained by sensor-based techniques.

4. Another wiseguy succinct answer from me. Your question: "How can the problem be solved without having an actual solution or solutions recommended--after an analysis of the data?"  My answer - extended - is that the data which exemplifies the conceptual problem (e.g. homelessness) is in constant flux. As the data changes so does the logically-derived language-based solution.  In visualization you have the universal solution to begin with - which will not be subject to changing data.

5. As far as I'm concerned PCs are redundant and obsolete now - as are tablets - as are cellphones and other multiuse mobiles - as are GPS devices - as are wristwatches.  I'm doing just fine and as interactive in the world of ideas and changing the future, if not more interactive, than many of my friends with apps galore.

6. There are many paths to the mountain, and to the sea.  As there are manifold wayos of how we think (or don't).
My experience, hence my reference to Myers-Briggs TI, is that a huge number of people don't understand the pros and cons of their own personality traits; and furthermore, don't understand how their personality traits affect and effect their own ways of thinking.

"Gnosco s'auton" = "Know Thyself" ~ some dead Greek philosopher.
puc reducks

Bier,
I think the simplest answer is the best.

As you said:  She attended a visioning event.  But she didn't vision!

Aside from all the why this and that, which I enjoyed tremendously, perhaps it was all miscommunication--on her part.  It's possible, I don't know, that she went in not only unprepared to vision, but possibly wasn't interested enough to learn what was meant.  One of those annoying pro forma sessions, envisioned by management!

I particularly like your most recent response to #4.  It's all so simple NOW!

I agree with #5 as well.  Madison Avenue and TV got me (brother,too, who has all the latest).  Meanwhile, I am content to be a dinosaue in the Holocene Epoch.

Re #6: Yes, too much of one kind of "introspection" (viz. "reality"shows and the like) and not enough real introspection.

"Know thyself."

"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."

and many more from those old dead philosophers.
scrutney

bier wrote:
5. As far as I'm concerned PCs are redundant and obsolete now - as are tablets - as are cellphones and other multiuse mobiles - as are GPS devices - as are wristwatches.  I'm doing just fine and as interactive in the world of ideas and changing the future, if not more interactive, than many of my friends with apps galore.


apps are for sissies.
i wonder when they became apps and ceased to be programs.

i'm as connected as i want to be...i fought off owning a cell phone as long as possible and succumbed to the inevitable about 4 years ago....i hate them.
(i particularly loathe the one i have now...it texts, surfs the net, makes neat little noises but fails at the one thing a phone should do...make and receive trouble free phone calls.)

other than having one on the road for emergency purposes and in the grocery store(if i can get reception) for a quick call to my sweet baby to see if we have enough curry for her tacos (i'm not kidding)...i can live a long and fulfilling life without them.

i'm not a technophobe but i can't see how my life is better being "connected":

case in point...my music collection...digital audio sucks...sure, i have thousands of cd's but the ones that were recorded in analog (back before the early 80's and those would comprise the lions share of my collection) sound like crap compared with the warm rich sound of an album (what's now referred to as vinyl) there's no comparison.

sure, i can store literally thousands of cd's on a 1 terabyte hard drive...but the more you store, the more you have to compress them...it's a viscous circle and the sound quality suffers.

coming down the pike to an electronics store near you, will be the next big thing, that'll be touted as "almost as good as analog".

we had a good thing, thirty years ago, before we upgraded to digital...and were "stuck with" analog.

television...i made a big deal several months ago about my new blu-ray player.

movies look great on my flat screen 45 inch monitor.
but they certainly don't look as good as seeing them on a movie screen.

and everything on the cable that's not broadcast in hd (high definition) looks like crap, blown up to 45 inches.
old movies lack definition and are fuzzy around the edges.
and seeing sean hannity in high-def?
well it turned me into a democrat, pretty quickly.

i want my old sony behemoth-tron back.

navigation systems?
peh.
again i say peh.
a friend of mine was complaining that his house wasn't listed in his brand new nav system in his brand new car. it was like listening to him bitch about the end of the world.

i asked him: "you do know where you live, don't you?"

"yeah."

"next time you're coming home from a long trip, punch in the address of the closest gas station to your house...i think you can wing it from there."

"you're missing the point."

yeah...i'm missing the point.

there's an end to this rant and i'm coming to it

i was at a friends house the other night and his son had six friends over, sitting in the living room.

every last one of them had ear buds plugged in and were staring at their personal digital time waster...we watched for five minutes...not a word was exchanged and when one of the kids laughed, i asked what was funny?

"mad dog, over there, just texted me something funny."

"you're texting?...someone in the room?"

he just looked at me as if i was an antique.
and a rather stupid one at that.

digital autism.

so the question was...how do you think?

i dunno...it depends on who you ask.
and now we're back on topic.
scrutney

and don't get me started on facebook and twitter.

i don't give a shit that my bff had a blt for lunch.lol.

there's narcissism for you, puc.
there are really people out there that think i care about what they had for lunch.

edited to add:
our wonderful food threads notwithstanding.

omg i hate facebook.
my third grade girlfriend wanted me to friend her...
like i really give a damn what's happening the life of a woman i haven't seen for 45 years.
people crawl out of the woodwork that you haven't thought about in years(and with good reason)...

and the really creepy thing is that they had to search to find you.

i shudder every time i check my email and see something like: scotty "digger" barnes sent you a message on facebook.

digger? wasn't he that bow legged, lactose intolerant creep from grade school, who sniffed his fingers and kept trying to show you his collection of rat parts?

ain't technology grand?


auntmartymoo

Scrutney, this has to be your best rant ever.
coebul

I wonder what happened to the little spinner stole from you?  Leslie???

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