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tsiya

SIMPLY AMAZING WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT

Isn't it amazing that, within only one week of Tiger Woods crashing his Escalade, the press found every woman with whom Tiger has had an affair during the last few years? And, they even uncovered photos, text messages, recorded phone calls, etc.! Furthermore, they not only know the cause of the family fight, but they even know it was a wedge from his golf bag that his wife used to break out the windows in the Escalade. Not only that, they know which wedge! And, each & every day, they were able to continue to provide America with updates on Tiger's sex rehab stay, his wife's plans for divorce, as well as the dates & tournaments in which he will play.
      Now, Barack Hussein Obama has been in office for two years, yet this very same press:
•     Cannot find any of his childhood friends or neighbors;
•     Or find any of Obama's high school or college classmates;
•     Or locate any of his college papers or grades;
•     Or determine how he paid for both a Columbia & a Harvard education;
•     Or discover which country issued his visa to travel to Pakistan in the 1980's;
•     Or even find Michelle Obama's Princeton thesis on racism.
          They just can't seem to uncover any of this.
          Yet, the public still trusts that same press to give them the whole truth!
          Simply amazing, isn't it?
bieramar

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

An unknown auther a year ago wrote:
Isn't it amazing that, within only one week of Tiger Woods crashing his Escalade, the press found every woman with whom Tiger has had an affair during the last few years?
<snip>
      Now, Barack Hussein Obama has been in office for two years, yet this very same press:
•     Cannot find any of his childhood friends or neighbors;
•     Or find any of Obama's high school or college classmates;
•     Or locate any of his college papers or grades;
•     Or determine how he paid for both a Columbia & a Harvard education;
•     Or discover which country issued his visa to travel to Pakistan in the 1980's;
•     Or even find Michelle Obama's Princeton thesis on racism.
          They just can't seem to uncover any of this.
          Yet, the public still trusts that same press to give them the whole truth!
          Simply amazing, isn't it?


ROFLMAO!
This has been floating around the internet for at least a year.

Any 5th grader can google up photos of Obama, and comments from his many schoolmates during his years in grades K-12 in Hawaii and Indonesia.

Although it might take an highschooler to figure out that he was nicknamed Barry and used his step-dad's name when he lived and went to school in Indonesia).

Every "lie" presented as a rhetorical question was thoroughly explored in the media during the 2008 elections (just intelligently "google" to find them); but in 2010 there was a resurgency with the Tiger Woods redux, as Obama's birth and citizenship was again questioned, with allegations that he isn't eligible to be president.  
What is so very funny - ROFLMAO - is that the same people who state that NO records exist in one bizarro internet posting, will then link to photostats of the records in another posting, to "prove" that Obama is Muslim, or wasn't smart enough to edit Harvard Law, or is an Indonesian citizen and thus can't be a U.S. citizen, or traveled on another alias and is a "Manchurian Candidate," etc.  

Misunderstood satire, ignorance, stupidity, disconnected from reality due to mental illness, intentional lies, willingness to believe anything about Obama, or?  My guess is a bit of all the above throughout the reading population.

BTW Obama wasn't the only U.S. citizen one who traveled to Pakistan in the summer of 1981 (traveling from Indonesia where during his college break he was visiting his mom and sister) - following this N.Y.Times "tourist" article: http://www.nytimes.com/1981/06/14...r-with-a-bittersweet-history.html
coebul

Re: ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

bieramar wrote:




Every "lie" presented as a rhetorical question was thoroughly explored in the media during the 2008 elections (just intelligently "google" to find them); but in 2010 there was a resurgency with the Tiger Woods redux, as Obama's birth and citizenship was again questioned, with allegations that he isn't eligible to be president.  
While not accepting Ts post I would point out every lie was not thoroughly explored.  The vetting of 0bama was piss poor at best.  

bieramar wrote:

What is so very funny - ROFLMAO - is that the same people who state that NO records exist in one bizarro internet posting, will then link to photostats of the records in another posting, to "prove" that Obama is Muslim, or wasn't smart enough to edit Harvard Law, or is an Indonesian citizen and thus can't be a U.S. citizen, or traveled on another alias and is a "Manchurian Candidate," etc.  
That is an opinion you seem to have but there are several points I would and do question.  For instance the press seemed to accept 0bama's statement that he never heard Wright rant like he did in 2008 yet 0bama and his family went to that church twice a month for 20 years...  

bieramar wrote:
BTW Obama wasn't the only U.S. citizen one who traveled to Pakistan in the summer of 1981 (traveling from Indonesia where during his college break he was visiting his mom and sister) - following this N.Y.Times "tourist" article: http://www.nytimes.com/1981/06/14...r-with-a-bittersweet-history.html
I am sure this is true but he is the only one that has run for President.  That does raise a different set of question in the vetting process.  

I am concerned with his association with Marshall in his youth.  I don't know how much of his record has been sealed but I do know other presidents records are not quite so confidential...



Oh does this make me ignorant also?
tsiya

Don't you know? Everyone is ignorant but Bieramar the Magnificent Shocked
auntmartymoo

Whoa.  Not so fast.  

Bieramar, if you were so hot to discredit Tsiya's post, why didn't you post any links?  If the information is so readily available, and all that...why did you waste so much space on ad hominems and so little on facts?

I've been looking for a link to Obama's thesis or any other college papers for ages.

And I'd also like to see the link to how he paid for Columbia & Harvard.

Oh, and his visa docs for that Pakistan trip.

Obviously, you know where to find these documents.  Please post the links and put this misinformation about Obama to bed, once and for all.
tsiya

Chrissy Matthews told him !!!
scrutney

tsiya wrote:
Or even find Michelle Obama's Princeton thesis on racism.


mark steyn found it and published snippets of it in his new book "after america":

michelle obama nee robinson wrote:
My speculation for this finding is based on the possibility that a separationist is more likely to have a realistic impression of the plight of the Black lower class because of the likelihood that a separationist is more closely associated with the Black lower class than are integrationist [sic]. By actually working with the Black lower class or within their communities as a result of their ideologies, a separationist [sic] may better understand the desparation [sic] of their [sic] situation and feel more hopeless about a resolution as opposed to an integrationist who is ignorant to [sic] their plight.
bieramar

auntmartymoo wrote:
Bieramar, if you were so hot to discredit Tsiya's post, why didn't you post any links?  

If the information is so readily available, and all that...why did you waste so much space on ad hominems and so little on facts?

I've been looking for a link to Obama's thesis or any other college papers for ages.

And I'd also like to see the link to how he paid for Columbia & Harvard.

Oh, and his visa docs for that Pakistan trip.


I didn't post links because (1) I've done so on most of the "press can not find" questions time and time again since 2008, and (2) the "prima facie" silliness of the satirical article itself.  It was written and posted in August 2010 by Tina Grazier who blogs as "Post Scripts" at NorCalBlogs.com (Chico Enterprise-Record newspaper in northern California).  It has been re-printed in full on at least 2,810 separate internet sites since then.

As to the press articles about Obama's childhood friends and neighbors - take your pick, then click "Google Images" for photos and facsimiles:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=e...a%27s+childhood+friends+neighbors

Likewise, highschool and college classmates - same as above: http://www.google.com/search?hl=e...27s+highschool+college+classmates

For his two years at Columbia College in New York getting his Bachelor's in PolySci, google for original articles about:
• Sohale Siddiqi, his roommate - AP article;
• Phil Boerner, classmate/apartment mate, writing his memories in the Columbia College Today alumni magazine - and also in the NY Times;
• Professor Michael L. Baron, who taught Obama in his last year-long honors seminar in American Foreign Policy - NBC interview on Obama "easily acing" the class and receiving an A for his senior paper on the topic of nuclear negotiations with the Soviet Union;
• His (Obama's) own article published in the 10 March 1983 edition of Columbia's Sundial magazine; and
• Columbia College Today's profile of Barack Obama as a Columbia alumnus.

For comic relief see Pajamas Media's apology about printing the satirical hoax of Obama's thesis as "true fact", and the after-comments:
http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelle...2009/10/23/the-obama-thesis-hoax/

And here is Michelle Obama's thesis: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8642.html

All found with a 5th-grader's search skills, and all published by the "media."

Columbia College in New York didn't require bachelor's theses in those days, so none exists.  As to "other papers" how many of yours are around?  Not sarcasm, as the same question applies to me and every other college student.  My thesis is online because I self-published it, and I once had an handful of other papers - but my college and graduate schools don't have any of record.

Here is the only Obama document (that I've found) from his Harvard days: http://theconservativetreehouse.w...-law-review-letter-to-the-editor/

No president in my memory has posted his grades (but I haven't looked for all of them).

All we have on the internet about the Obamas' loans and scholarships are their answers to the press.  They took out loans, worked side jobs, and didn't get them paid back until the $1 million+ earnings from his first two books - and their IRS reports are also Googleable.  Very much like many other students of that era, except for the paying back from profitable book sales.

Which leaves Obama's flight from Indonesia to Pakistan and back in 1981 -- and I don't understand your question.

First of all, it was Obama himself who during the 2008 campaign told the world about the trip.

Secondly, I've already posted the NY Times' travel article demonstrating that nothing was needed to enter Pakistan except a U.S. passport (Obama's passport facsimiles are linked at WhiteHouse.gov), and a temporary 30-day visitor's visa.  

Is that what you want to see? - a copy of a 30-year old temporary visit visa (which probably was tossed years ago)?  Why?  Because you think Obama was lying when he said he visited Pakistan?  Or?
auntmartymoo

ROFLMAO

A simple "No, I don't have links to any of those 3 items" would have sufficed.


Obviously, I don't give a crap about Obama's visa...I was mocking you a bit because I knew you could not provide links to facts on any of the 3 items.  

The point is that your ridicule and condescension were unwarranted, as several of the points in the propaganda piece are indeed valid.

But then, you weren't interested in facts, you were too focused on Alinsky's 5th rule.

bieramar wrote:
Misunderstood satire, ignorance, stupidity, disconnected from reality due to mental illness, intentional lies, willingness to believe anything about Obama, or?  My guess is a bit of all the above throughout the reading population.
tsiya

Bier's problem is that he knows Obama's citizenship status really is doubtful, in spite of the Photoshopped BC, and may be even more doubtful if more documents were available.

If, for example, we knew that Obama attended college on an Indonesian scholarship it would change his legal status.
auntmartymoo

Sorry, Tsiya.  I don't give any credence to the Birther conspiracy theories, and I doubt Bieramar does either.

But I do think there is a shortage of facts when it comes to several items on the list you posted.  In fact, the only item that is easily found via google search is Mrs. Obama's thesis.
tsiya

You are probably like many other people, conditioned NOT to give credence to anything once it's been branded a conspiracy theory. It's a very effective form of censorship.
There are many people who won't associate with the Tea Party Movement because they don't want anyone to call them racist, even though the Tea Party Movement isn't racist.
bieramar

tsiya wrote:
If, for example, we knew that Obama attended college on an Indonesian scholarship it would change his legal status.


Why would that be?

Many people of all citizenships attend colleges in other countries, and/or attend college in their own country with scholarships from outside their country - whether or not they have dual citizenship.

auntmartymoo wrote:
But I do think there is a shortage of facts when it comes to several items on the list you [tsiya] posted.  In fact, the only item that is easily found via google search is Mrs. Obama's thesis.


I contend that the friends and classmates included in my first two links are also easily found, including photos and media interviews - I just didn't separate out the conspiracy chaff items from the authentic ones.

I also contend that the difficulty in finding stuff in the other categories on the list (student loans and the paybacks, travel, and scholarly product) is simply "you can't prove a negative."    

How many of us can find documentation of our own colleges and grad schools and travels - beyond what has been found and published for Obama?  I know I can't,
tsiya

If he had an Indonesian scholarship it was, by Indonesian law, as an Indonesian citizen.
I am aware that you wouldn't give a damn if Hugo Chavez ran for president but the Constitution is still valid for a few of us.
bieramar

tsiya wrote:
If he had an Indonesian scholarship it was, by Indonesian law, as an Indonesian citizen.


And?  Millions of people have dual U.S. and other nation's citizenship and passports. Obama traveled under his mom's passport as a minor, and if she became an Indonesian citizen and had two passports, he would have been a dual citizen by default - as are the children of millions of other dual citizens.

If Obama got an Indonesian scholarship to attend college (hypothetically for the sake of argument as of course there isn't a single thread of evidence that he did), it wouldn't have meant dipshit regarding his U.S. citizenship into which he was born.

The only (hypothetical again) way he - or any other U.S. citizen - loses their native-born citizenship identity is if they themselves renounce it when they become a citizen of another country.  If not renounced they are simply dual citizens.

tsiya wrote:
I am aware that you wouldn't give a damn if Hugo Chavez ran for president but the Constitution is still valid for a few of us.


I had no idea that Chavez was a native-born U.S. citizen!  When and where was he born?  And you're right, I wouldn't give a damn about ANY native-born U.S. citizen running for president as long as (s)he meets the Constitutional provisions.

And as to the U.S. Constitution, which I've lived under and studied - and fought for and sworn allegience to multiple times - longer than you have, it still is valid for me, also.  Anytime you want to discuss any part of it, just post/cite the relevant words and your understanding of them.
auntmartymoo

bieramar wrote:
tsiya wrote:
If he had an Indonesian scholarship it was, by Indonesian law, as an Indonesian citizen.

And?  


A US president with dual citizenship is a pretty damned big deal, Bieramar.  And it's something people would want to know about a candidate before voting.
tsiya

There are many unanswered questions and Obama obviously doesn't want to answer them.
Some folks just don't give a damn, or are afraid of the answers.
bieramar

auntmartymoo wrote:
bieramar wrote:
tsiya wrote:
If he had an Indonesian scholarship it was, by Indonesian law, as an Indonesian citizen.

And?  


A US president with dual citizenship is a pretty damned big deal, Bieramar.  And it's something people would want to know about a candidate before voting.


Agreed.

Now please point me to even a scintilla of evidence that Obama held dual citizenship.

Not conspiratorial hypothetical possibilities of what could have been - the stuff of great fiction in print and on the screen - but some real flesh and blood person who alleges that (s)he had/has direct knowledge that Obama ever had, or even mentioned having, an Indonesian passport and/or ever held dual citizenship.

And/or for that matter, point me to one scintilla of evidence that the government of Indonesia in the applicable years provided ANY person with a scholarship to attend an U.S. college or university.

BTW the last legal decision I'm aware of in re the infamous Berg "birther" legal challenge is here:

PRECEDENTIAL
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE THIRD CIRCUIT
No. 08-4340
PHILIP J. BERG, ESQUIRE,
Appellant
v.
BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, a/k/a BARRY SOETORO, a/k/a BARRY OBAMA, a/k/a BARACK DUNHAM, a/k/a BARRY DUNHAM;

THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL
COMMITTEE;

THE FEDERAL ELECTION COMMISSION;

THE SECRETARY OF THE COMMONWEALTH,
PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF STATE;

PEDRO A. CORTAS, Secretary of the Commonwealth in his official capacity;

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, Chairman of the U.S. Senate, Commission on Rules and Administration in her official
capacity; U.S. SENATE, COMMISSION ON RULES AND ADMINISTRATION; and

DOES 1-50 INCLUSIVE

On Appeal from the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania (D.C. Civil No. 2-08-cv-04083)

District Judge: Hon. R. Barclay Surrick
Submitted Under Third Circuit LAR 34.1(a)
October 26, 2009
Before: SLOVITER, FUENTES and HARDIMAN, Circuit
Judges
(Filed: November 12, 2009 )
---
Source, arguments, and affirmation of the prior decisions tossing out Berg's "birther" lawsuit alleging that Obama is not a U.S. citizen.  
http://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/084340p.pdf

Speaking of real flesh and blood people, here's yet another example of all those fellow students, friends, professors et al that the "press" allegedly hasn't been able to find - according to that year-old article that tsiya posted, and which I made fun of.

--- excerpt ---
Roger Boesche, a professor of politics who's cited as Obama's intellectual mentor at Occidental, said the young man from Honolulu was "a very thoughtful student and a very curious student."

Obama enrolled in two of Boesche's courses: a survey of American government and political thought from the Revolution through the civil rights movement and an advanced look at modern European political thought, which tackled such philosophers as Friedrich Nietzsche and Max Weber. "You didn't take my European Modern class without wanting to think about deep ideas," said Boesche.

Teacher and student later lost touch until Obama, then an Illinois state senator, ran for the U.S. Senate in 2004 and Boesche launched a warm e-mail correspondence.

Eric Newhall, a professor of American studies and American literature at Occidental, said Obama played with flair as a fiercely competitive guard in faculty-student pickup basketball games.

"I remember him clearly as better as an offensive player than a defense player," he said. Now Newhall likes to lightheartedly brag that he "scored a good number of baskets against the senator of Illinois. I would love to say I scored against the president."

On a more serious note, Newhall said Obama already showed glimpses of social conscience and what his supporters describe as his charisma. "Clearly the guy had a presence," he said.

"He came off as a serious, articulate, intelligent young guy," Newhall recalled. "I didn't say, 'Here is presidential timber,' but I said to myself, 'I like our student body because they are going out to do interesting things.' "

He and others recall a strong speech Obama made at a campus rally urging South Africa divestment. Obama, in his book, considered that a big moment: "I figured I was ready, and could reach people where it counted," he wrote. "I thought my voice wouldn't fail me." Still, Obama initially thought he had flopped.

Dorm neighbor Ken Sulzer, now a lawyer in Century City, remembers Haines Hall's loud soundtrack of New Wave bands like the Flying Lizards. Hallway debates tackled the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and President Carter's subsequent revival of draft registration.

Obama "did not impose his personality but certainly was well-respected among his peers and always had that great voice, even when he was 17, 18," Sulzer said.

--- end excerpts ---
Source of L.A.Times article written in January 2007:
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jan/29/local/me-oxy29
tsiya

I'm not an Indonesian lawyer, but, it has been said that to qualify for an education grant from the Indonesian government Indonesian citizenship was required, not an option.
Thing is, when the question was posed he should have answered. It is a valid question, a valid concern. Why the Hell should I, and other voters, have to take his word for anything?
Any voter may choose not to give a damn about the Constitution but they cannot tell me, or any other voter, that we must ignore it. Doing so goes far beyond the limits of democracy in this republic.
I am well aware that many democrats recognize no limits on their freaking lynch mob, that's just another thing they are wrong about.
I use Photoshop on a daily basis, I've followed the analysis of the latest BC offering. I do not believe it would withstand an examination by an unbiased forensic scientist. It is pasted together from multiple documents and not very well done at all.
bieramar

tsiya wrote:
I'm not an Indonesian lawyer, but, it has been said that to qualify for an education grant from the Indonesian government Indonesian citizenship was required, not an option.


So just post the link to the original source that an Indonesian government education grant was received by - or even offered to - Obama.

That is a very simple thing to do.

Do you have one, or not?
tsiya

New documents point to Indonesian citizenship
Mother dropped Obama from U.S. passport when being American danger




Documents released by the State Department in two separate Freedom of Information Act requests bolster evidence Barack Obama became a citizen of Indonesia when he moved to the Southeast Asian nation with his mother and stepfather in the late 1960s.

In a passport amendment submitted Aug. 13, 1968, Obama's mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, identified her son with an Indonesian surname and asked the State Department to drop him from her U.S. passport.

The transaction could have been part of an effort by Dunham to obtain Indonesian citizenship for her son. It took place before the State Department began requiring all citizens traveling abroad, regardless of age, to obtain their own passport.

Several court cases challenging Obama's presidential eligibility have argued he gave up his U.S. citizenship in Indonesia and used an Indonesian passport to travel to Pakistan in the early 1980s. Indonesia does not allow dual citizenship.

The amendment was submitted less than a year after Dunham joined her second husband, Lolo Soetoro, in Indonesia. It requested "Barack Obama II (Soebarkah)" be removed from her U.S. passport, No. 777788.



Read more: New documents point to Indonesian citizenship http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=187813#ixzz1YYEDEQeY
bieramar

tsiya, posting the following wrote:
Mother dropped Obama from U.S. passport

<snip the article writer's speculation about why Obama's mom wanted her 7-year-old son, identified as "Barack Obama II (Soebarkah)" dropped from her U.S. passport.>

In a passport amendment submitted Aug. 13, 1968, Obama's mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, identified her son with an Indonesian surname [in parenthesis] and asked the State Department to drop him from her U.S. passport....

It requested "Barack Obama II (Soebarkah)" be removed from her U.S. passport, No. 777788.

Source:
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=187813#ixzz1YYEDEQeY


Does the removal of a 7-year-old from a passport, so the parent can travel alone, change the fact of where the 7-year-old was born?

No.

Did the removal of the 7-year-old Barack Obama II's name from the passport change the reality of where he was born?

No.

If Barack Obama II was a "Natural Born" U.S. citizen in accordance with the U.S. Constitution before his name was taken off the passport, was he still a "Natural Born" U.S. citizen after his name was removed?

Yes.

Did Obama's mom subsequently travel alone on her U.S. passport?

Yes.

Did Obama himself subsequently travel without his mom back to Hawaii?

Yes.

Is there any evidence - or statements from any flesh and blood person who was in Indonesia or Hawaii at the time - that indicates Obama ever had, or applied for, an Indonesian passport?

No.

Is there any evidence of record - or any real person on the scene who states - that Obama ever applied for, or received, an Indonesian scholarship to attend college in the United States?

No.

Is there a difference between the meaning of the word "could" and the meaning of the word "did?"

Yes.

Does the word "could" refer to an infinite number of possible actions, without any necessity of supporting facts?

Yes.

Have I stopped beating my wife?

No.
tsiya

When did Zero appoint you to SCOTUS?

Too many issues HAVE NOT been sufficiently and honestly investigated.

Too many government functionaries would rather let the law slide than offend anyone.
auntmartymoo

Again, the point is that Americans have a right to know whether or not their presidential candidates have held foreign passports, had dual citizenship, or obtained scholarships as a citizen of a foreign country.

The point isn't whether or not a candidate with those circumstances is allowed to be president or not.  

A candidate should disclose that information so that voters can make informed decisions in advance of the election.   If any of those circumstances apply to Obama, it should've been revealed during his campaign so that voters could ask valid questions about his allegiances.
bieramar

tsiya wrote:
When did Zero appoint you to SCOTUS?


My appointment to the judiciary was by President Ronald Reagan, and was obviously not to SCOTUS (although current Associate Justice Clarence Thomas is an old friend with whom I discussed my logic and decisions "back in the day"), as my jurisdiction was in re a federal "exclusive remedy" law - which is outside the realm of SCOTUS unless a U.S. Constitutional issue arises.

97% of my rulings were upheld on Appeal.

3% were remanded as having been unripe for adjudication when I issued my decisions, with Orders for further evidence development, to be followed by a "de novo" ruling.  

The subsequent rulings in those 3% after development, were identical to my initial ones, i.e., a 100% adjudicatory record with NONE overturned by the higher courts.

However - and more to the points of the passport and scholarship thingees - you don't have to have a legal background or be a judge to distinguish between (1) verified facts, (2) reasonably verifiable allegations, (3) infinite numbers of "what could have been," and (4) "what should be" opinions.

Common sense and thinking is all that is needed to make the distinctions between the above four.

Then opinions - drawn from the validity and verifiability of the facts, shoulds and coulds - can logically be argued.

Thus far all I've seen posted here about "birther" issues are in the (3) and (4) categories - which are fun and games to discuss and/or laugh at depending upon one's view.
When something in (1) or (2) appears, then serious consideration is warranted.
coebul

tsiya wrote:
You are probably like many other people, conditioned NOT to give credence to anything once it's been branded a conspiracy theory. It's a very effective form of censorship.
There are many people who won't associate with the Tea Party Movement because they don't want anyone to call them racist, even though the Tea Party Movement isn't racist.
Bob I am not conditioned to give or not give credence to much of anything.  I am a skeptic in most thing political but I will tell you your farting in a windstorm here.  

0bama was born to a US citizen no matter who his father was.  That is good enough for me...  

I think the Tea Party movement is with out reservation the greatest political change (if it continues) in modern politics.  I do not agree with a great deal of it's positions so will not become a member.  

They are a bit to far to the right for my brand of politics.  But they have definitely shaken things up a bit.  Racism is rhetoric from the left.  There are racists in every political faction.
auntmartymoo

<Trying to ignore the shrill sound of a man tooting his own horn.>

I still think the conversation should not be steered toward "legality."  I believe that it is a moral question...about disclosure and transparency.

And quite frankly, the moral issue is a more interesting one.  Exactly how much information should a candidate for president be required to disclose?
If I had my druthers...they'd all be required to fill out a job application.  

In some ways it would be just like a regular job application...previous employers, salaries, length of time at each job.  But, in addition, there would be some pointed questions like:  Have you ever been issued a foreign passport?  and the like.  There would be room to explain, of course.
bieramar

auntmartymoo wrote:
<Trying to ignore the shrill sound of a man tooting his own horn.>

I still think the conversation should not be steered toward "legality."  I believe that it is a moral question...about disclosure and transparency.

And quite frankly, the moral issue is a more interesting one.  Exactly how much information should a candidate for president be required to disclose?
If I had my druthers...they'd all be required to fill out a job application.  

In some ways it would be just like a regular job application...previous employers, salaries, length of time at each job.  But, in addition, there would be some pointed questions like:  Have you ever been issued a foreign passport?  and the like.  There would be room to explain, of course.


I tootingly agree 100%.  
Including medical and legal records.  Foreign passports, and foreign travel regardless of passports.  Its an increasingly smaller world and increasingly more important job.  

All published, and then vetted in the court of public opinion before the formal nominating process is completed.

I once had a job where I had to account for each 15 minutes of what I was doing, by recording a log.  

I don't think that detail would be necessary, but a presidential candidate should at least provide a home address and what was occupying his/her time for each year of his life.

Sexual liaisons not required - the partners will either come forward or not. Same with illegal activities which did not result in public records.
auntmartymoo

bieramar wrote:
Including medical and legal records.  Foreign passports, and foreign travel regardless of passports.  

Good points.  Hadn't thought of legal records and all foreign travel.  I suppose excessive travel to one country or region could be an indicator of...something.  Foreign allegiances, maybe?  Family ties?  What if we needed to declare war...sanctions...that sort of thing.

And early disclosure would have to be a requirement.  No sense in releasing the info 2 weeks prior to election day, when there wouldn't be time to verify accuracy and dig for dirt!
tsiya

No one here has yet learned of and considered all the available evidence one way or the other.
At the first sign of any doubt the spin masters started work and shut your brains down on the issue.
auntmartymoo

There's a lot of truth to that.

But I think it was more of an Alinsky tactic than just mere spin.  It's one thing for the media to script the narrative, and yet another to ridicule anyone who asks a question.  

But I think the strategy backfired.  The whole claptrap probably would've died down completely by now...if it weren't for the application of ridicule.

Americans just don't like to be manhandled that way.
tsiya

There are enough indisputable facts to prevent Obama from getting a security clearance if he had to undergo the usual investigation.
auntmartymoo

Nope, see... you lost me when you went to the extreme rhetoric again.  

You can't just blurt those kinds of accusations and not back them up with hard facts.  Well, not if you want anyone to believe you.

What's required for a security clearance?  And let's see those "indisputable facts" that you think would prevent Obama from getting one.

Suppositions about dual citizenship and foreign visas isn't going to cut it.
tsiya

Association with known felons for a starter. I'm not sure of the standard now but way back when my fathers security clearance was under regular review, and later when I was investigated for a clearance, you had to have a nearly spotless record. Obama's association with Ayers and Dorhn is to me, anyway, enough to create doubt.
My daddy's career depended on a spotless history. I never rose to that level.
I suspect Bier is going to come along and try to justify Bill and Bernadine's actions, everything is relative to him. Shocked  Bill and Bernadine are no less criminal than Timothy McVeigh. didn't kill as many people but they damn sure tried.
bieramar

tsiya wrote:
Association with known felons for a starter. I'm not sure of the standard now but way back when my fathers security clearance was under regular review, and later when I was investigated for a clearance, you had to have a nearly spotless record. Obama's association with Ayers and Dorhn is to me, anyway, enough to create doubt.


Yes, association with Ayers (not a convicted felon) and Dorhn (convicted of Aggravated Battery and Bail Jumping; probation on both felonies) is enough to create doubt, which formally is "could give a security concern and may be disqualifying."  But the decision is up to the Adjudicator reviewing "conditions that could mitigate security concerns."

See
http://lastpostpublishing.com/resources.aspx and click "Adjudicative Guidelines and you'll find the above quotes in Guideline A.4 and A.5.

However knowing or even associating with known felons isn't an automatic disqualifier (nor was it in your daddy's day at the federal level), as the above applies.  Each background investigation is adjudicated on its own merits.

I've been investigated by U.S., NATO and other nations, and have known and associated with felons since a child - and still do.  I've been granted upper level clearances of TOP SECRET, NATO TOP SECRET, SCI, Q, CRYPTO, TK, HSC, SAP, and numerous CODE "need to know" levels like EYES ONLY etc. after the background and other investigations.
tsiya

Hell of a state of affairs!

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